Right, that is the same Anakin who did this in 0.6B. He claims to be helping LFS development, and said he achieved his aim by getting me back to work (actually taking me off the tyre physics and onto hacker protection - though I agree there was useful development of the multiplayer code). But he doesn't want to help by letting us know how he did this. If he would send us an email of explanation, that would help LFS development, because I would be able to get back to the tyre physics and some editor tools Eric has asked me for. But his current approach is not helping to advance the speed of LFS development.
Anyway, I would like to see a log produced from the host at the time he joined it, hopefully with the replay also recorded on the host.
Anyway, I would like to see a log produced from the host at the time he joined it, hopefully with the replay also recorded on the host.
On topic :
I hope to release a dedicated host test update either today or tomorrow, that should at least prevent the user being connected with a user name you cannot type, or a user name that does not match the user id.
Off topic :
Although development has been slow for some time, we are still motivated on LFS, which we do regard as a long term thing. I must admit this year both Eric and I have had some slow months and some months in which we didn't do much LFS at all.
In both our cases that has been partly for external reasons which will not have a long term negative effect, and also partly a need for a slight break after several years of hard work.
In my case I have got into some sport (cross country running and cycling) which has obvious benefits I don't need to explain, after two decades without. That occupied my mind a lot (in a good way) and has been great for me and my family, but not great in an immediate sense for LFS's development this summer. The journey of tyre physics development has been a tough one, round and round, forwards and backwards these couple of years. I feel this summer break has helped me mentally. I've got some answers and plan to get that tyre stuff sorted out so we can get back to the fun stuff and a faster development rate in the S3 period.
I hope to release a dedicated host test update either today or tomorrow, that should at least prevent the user being connected with a user name you cannot type, or a user name that does not match the user id.
Off topic :
Although development has been slow for some time, we are still motivated on LFS, which we do regard as a long term thing. I must admit this year both Eric and I have had some slow months and some months in which we didn't do much LFS at all.
In both our cases that has been partly for external reasons which will not have a long term negative effect, and also partly a need for a slight break after several years of hard work.
In my case I have got into some sport (cross country running and cycling) which has obvious benefits I don't need to explain, after two decades without. That occupied my mind a lot (in a good way) and has been great for me and my family, but not great in an immediate sense for LFS's development this summer. The journey of tyre physics development has been a tough one, round and round, forwards and backwards these couple of years. I feel this summer break has helped me mentally. I've got some answers and plan to get that tyre stuff sorted out so we can get back to the fun stuff and a faster development rate in the S3 period.
Progress Report December 2011
A short progress report posted on www.lfs.net :
Dear LFS Racers,
We hope you had a good year in 2011. In June we released 0.6B, the best version of LFS so far. Since then we have been continuing to work towards the new tyre model and the S3 upgrade which we plan to release after the physics update.
Scawen has been further developing the virtual tyre test rig, a detailed model of a tyre's structure, to work out various values for the in-game tyre model. For example, what is the contact patch length, width and pressure for a given vertical deflection and how does the tyre's shape change with forces, torques and camber. These depend on the dimensions and structure of a tyre. By making the in-game tyres behave in a similar way, the driving experience will be as realistic as possible.
In the left part of the image, the yellow lines show the radial cords of the carcass. The orange and green lines show the steel belts and the cap ply. The right side of the image illustrates the carcass thickness which gives some rigidity even without air pressure.
Eric has been working on the S3 content. After the physics update and the VW Scirocco are released as a free update for all S1 and S2 license holders, we will work towards the S3 update which will provide more tracks and cars to S3 license holders. As usual for an upgrade, the cost of your existing license will be deducted from the full price.
We wish you a happy 2012, and we'll release the updates as soon as we can!
- LFS Developers
Dear LFS Racers,
We hope you had a good year in 2011. In June we released 0.6B, the best version of LFS so far. Since then we have been continuing to work towards the new tyre model and the S3 upgrade which we plan to release after the physics update.
Scawen has been further developing the virtual tyre test rig, a detailed model of a tyre's structure, to work out various values for the in-game tyre model. For example, what is the contact patch length, width and pressure for a given vertical deflection and how does the tyre's shape change with forces, torques and camber. These depend on the dimensions and structure of a tyre. By making the in-game tyres behave in a similar way, the driving experience will be as realistic as possible.
In the left part of the image, the yellow lines show the radial cords of the carcass. The orange and green lines show the steel belts and the cap ply. The right side of the image illustrates the carcass thickness which gives some rigidity even without air pressure.
Eric has been working on the S3 content. After the physics update and the VW Scirocco are released as a free update for all S1 and S2 license holders, we will work towards the S3 update which will provide more tracks and cars to S3 license holders. As usual for an upgrade, the cost of your existing license will be deducted from the full price.
We wish you a happy 2012, and we'll release the updates as soon as we can!
- LFS Developers
That sign is not linked into LFS speed limits. I just added it so that hosters, through InSim programs, could implement a 50 km/h speed limit if they wanted to. I just copied Eric's 80 km/h sign from Blackwood and changed the texture on the front.
Well the chalk arrows have not changed, forward always meant forward (same direction as a start position).
So your point really is that you would prefer markers to be the opposite way. But they came from Aston and that's just the way they were made. They face "forward". So the "front" of them has the writing on it. That's how Eric first made them in the modeller and I really think that is the normal way that anyone would build an object. What you would call the front of a car and what you would call the front of a sign...
Only problem is you like the front of signs to oppose the front of a car. So the signs that you see on a road are all pointing backwards.
Anyway, that's just how it is so it will not be changed.
So your point really is that you would prefer markers to be the opposite way. But they came from Aston and that's just the way they were made. They face "forward". So the "front" of them has the writing on it. That's how Eric first made them in the modeller and I really think that is the normal way that anyone would build an object. What you would call the front of a car and what you would call the front of a sign...
Only problem is you like the front of signs to oppose the front of a car. So the signs that you see on a road are all pointing backwards.
Anyway, that's just how it is so it will not be changed.
Maybe you do, but I don't.
Remember, LFS came before InSim. LFS paths are created as a looped path with an arbitrary start and end point. This path contains lighting info, echo info, visible objects info and so on. These are generated in one direction only and they are flipped for the reverse path. Eric might change the position of the finish line and there is no need to regenerate the path. There is absolutely no need for the finish line to be at node zero, and I can't write the code to assume that in a general case, so there has never been a need to rearrange the paths to align with the finish line, and move all the data around between nodes when the path is flipped. The work involved for that would be quite tremendous and have bug potential, when all you need to do is subtract the finish line from your car's path node, if you want to find its position relative to the finish line.
relative_node = (lfs_reported_node + num_nodes - finish_line_node) % num_nodes;
I can write that in 10 seconds but it would be days of work to try and rearrange the way it is represented internally in LFS.
Heh, this is like talking to my 5 year old son, who asks so many questions! And here it's not good, because each person who asks a question takes yet another 5 to 10 minutes of my time, so reducing the updates I can put in today's patch. It would be better to accept what I say, because I have thought it through.
This an INTERMEDIATE patch with the same old tyre physics. That means, the old hotlaps are staying valid. It's not a good time to delete all the old hotlaps, when the tyre physics is still the same. So, we are not releasing track updates that would make all the hotlaps go out of sync.
That is quite apart from the fact that Eric is working on S3 content at the moment. I think it is ok for me to say, that he doesn't like being asked to switch from one thing to another. Some people like to switch tasks all the time - I have no choice - but Eric does not like that, he likes to stay focussed on what is is doing. This is sort of "my" patch and I don't think he really wants to be involved. Not that I have asked him - I've already explained above, we don't want to put the hotlaps out of sync. I've gone into a lot of detail how one thing led to another on the road to this patch.
So, please, try to understand, I'm working very hard to try and get a patch out today and I don't want to explain every single decision on every step of the way.
Yes, the fix is automatic, so it should fix any cases. But if you have found more false collisions (hitting something that isn't there) other than the Fern Bay pit walls beside the gantries, then I's like to having a look to make sure it's covered by the same fix.
The SHIFT+U views are stored in the .tvw files in the data\views folder.
I don't know what you mean about the autocross lights, they seem to work ok. Maybe you are talking about the sequence of the lights? I can't change that easily, Eric did it how he wanted it, and it is stored in the lights object.
progress
Last Thursday I thought I'd have a "quick look" at that. And tried the updated segment collisons system that I did for the ray check in the new SHIFT+U mode. Segments are the curvy things that form the track, fences, walls, pit garages, some buildings, etc. Most things that you do hit are segments, unless they are "objects". I keep calling this a collision detection system but it's not just collisions, it is actually the whole contact detection system that the tyres also use to detect the ground.
Well, it was promising but problems soon showed up (like crazy collisions on things that aren't there due to incorrect assumptions). That took me on one of these development journeys, trying so many different ways to sort out the problems. There I will cut a long story short.
Finally this Wednesday I got to a usable version of a new 3d based segment collision system that is more reliable and better than any LFS has had before and you can scrape a Blackwood pit garage wall when you drive out, without being flung anywhere. Only problem was that it used about 50% more cpu.
On Thursday I was trying and trying to speed it up and finally came to a nice optimisation that means the new, accurate collision system uses less cpu than the old one. Eric, Victor and I have tested it and can't find any problems and we hope you'll find it's a lot better than the old system.
Old hotlaps can still run although they would have gone OOS because the old collision detection system is in there and that is used when you run a pre-Z30 replay.
Tuesday 12
==========
Objects in escape road at BL chicane removed from open configs
List of Hosts now shows X or Y if an open config is selected
Car reset now works on open configs (if reset is enabled)
Wear limit for changing tyres can be set to 100% (never)
Compatibility : new packets not sent if connected to old host
Compatibility : new host does not allow old versions to connect
Wednesday 13
============
FIX : Clutch axis / button was not reported from Controls screen
Surface friction of objects is now CONCRETE (was previously ICE)
Discovered that many KY2 and KY3 replays were OOS due to objects
Implemented SPR version check so old replays can still be watched
Added a new Ramp2 which is the same as Ramp1 but 2.8 metres wide
Ramp1 and Ramp2 are stored in the exe and loaded into all tracks
Thursday 14
===========
Improved Y character to make it look less like V character
FIX : Host restart exploit found by Luigi Auriemma (23 Aug 2009)
FIX : High altitude layout objects appeared under ground on load
Updated contact detection to fix pit garage exit collisions
Friday 15 to Tuesday 18
=======================
New segment collision detection system
Weds 20
=======
Finished a usable version of the new segment collision system
Objects closing pit road at SO removed from open configs
Various stacks of tyres at SO removed from open configs
Thurs 21
========
Optimised the segment collisions - now faster than old version
Implemented VOB mod protection (physical changes will cause OOS)
FIX : clicking on a car in SHIFT+U sometimes put view inside car
InSim : added more info to the IS_CON packet
Friday 22
=========
Updated follow car option in SHIFT+U mode
Added a minimum height slider bar in "more" options
New command /ck cancels any kick or ban votes in progress
New command /cv cancels any votes (kick, ban, restart, etc)
You can drive there as part of a larger configuration but you can't put a start grid on it, as you can only use existing grids (or the single autocross start position).
No, that new section is not opened up in this patch. It's very unfinished there, experimental and lacks barriers so you can just fall into the underworld. I don't know how far Eric will go with it in the future.
New test patch coming soon (not VWS or S3)
Dear LFS Racers,
Since the release of Z28 there have been various fixes and improvements that were not related to the new physics. Some of them were already added into my Z28 compatible version as well as the new version. But until now there weren't enough significant updates to release a new version, while Z28 was so stable.
NOTE : This patch is mainly compatible with Z28, so does NOT have the new tyre physics, the VW Scirocco or any S3 content. It is an intermediate update with some interesting improvements for LFS while I continue with the tyre physics. The new version can connect to Z28 hosts, but Z28 cannot connect to the new version's hosts.
The main things in this patch :
- New free view in SHIFT+U mode - not bounded by the path
- Improved collisions with unmovable objects (e.g. red barriers)
- Number of autocross objects increased to 800 (was 512)
- Open track configurations allowing you to drive anywhere
- Collision detection and reporting system (via InSim)
- Graphical optimisations improving frame rates
- Many other fixes and improvements
The story behind the new patch :
A few weeks ago I was working on some track editor improvements that Eric had requested, when I came across a fix that could possibly affect key presses in multi byte languages. An LFS user in Japan kindly tested the change, to make sure the fix didn't break the text input. I added a few updates from the new version into the patch before sending it to him.
Talking to Victor about possibly releasing the updates in a patch, he asked if it was possible to do a quick fix in SHIFT+U mode to help with his LFS Record program. I have long been a little frustrated in SHIFT+U mode so I got a bit carried away with that and rewrote all the camera control. It took a few weeks (that made me nervous as I really want to finish the new physics) but the result is a lot nicer to use. You can move the camera around freely, not bounded to the track path. The editor is fully aware of where your mouse is pointing and that helps with mouse movement and object positioning.
Because the new view is not locked to the path of the track, LFS does not know which objects are visible, so the whole track must be drawn. I managed to find several optimisations that improved the frame rate in this situation, and that gave me a thought : if you can be in SHIFT+U mode and draw everything, then how about allowing "open configurations" where you can drive around anywhere in a track area, with the barriers removed? I thought that would make the patch more interesting, and managed to get it done in a few days.
To make the open configurations useful, you need to put barriers up using the autocross system. But the unmovable barriers were famously troublesome, often throwing your car several metres in the air if you touched a red and white barrier. Looking into this, I found that I was able to improve these collisions a lot without any major changes. It doesn't seem to affect the hotlap replays (tested on all the world records).
Over last weekend I added a collision detection system, that can send information about collisions to InSim. And today I've increased the maximum length of message packets, which will be helpful for InSim programmers.
If all goes well, it should be possible to release this as a test patch within one to two weeks. There are a few things left on my list, including VOB mod protection and some small InSim updates. I am aiming for one week - I do want to get back to the physics - but I know that finishing things off sometimes takes longer than expected.
Here is the full list of updates :
SHIFT+U mode :
New free view mode replaces the old "low" and "high" path modes
Object or ground targeted by the mouse pointer is now detected
Left mouse button moves view point by "dragging" target point
Double click to move view point directly towards target point
Mouse wheel moves view point towards or away from target point
Left + Right mouse buttons rotate view point around the target
Arrow key movement follows ground below view point when possible
Store up to 10 views per track configuration with SHIFT+NUMBER
Recall a stored view with CTRL+NUMBER (or click on the button)
Click on a car to follow it / move away to stop following
Autocross editor :
Maximum number of autocross objects is now 800 on all tracks
Object positioning is much better - using mouse target detection
Less CPU / better checks when adding / moving / deleting objects
FIX : Could click on invisible replay slider when buttons visible
FIX : Could add marshall circles out of bounds then undeletable
FIX : N key in SHIFT+U with options on caused overlapping text
Open configurations :
New "drive anywhere" open configs (CTRL in track select screen)
Open configs can be selected with text command like /track=SO1X
Open configs can be used as racing circuits by adding checkpoints
Checkpoints can now be up to 62 metres wide to include pit lane
Optimisations :
Removed continual small memory leaks (materials list corruption)
Number plate generation is much faster - reducing pit-out glitch
Frame rate increased - drawing most world objects is much faster
Interface :
Unlock screen now renames unnamed player to user name on exit
Clicking selected track loads that track (like pressing ENTER)
Windows messages processed in a cleaner way (affects key presses)
Mouse movements are processed more efficiently (drag / slide)
FIX : Mouse look info could go off screen in some languages
FIX : An invalid view could be selected when no cars in race
FIX : Meeting room scroll bar was invisible in recent versions
FIX : Text commands could be used to load layout in hotlap mode
Graphics / Audio :
Improved display of help text / lesson text / welcome messages
F9 tyre diagram and SHIFT+L suspension diagrams now antialiased
Improved tyre optimisation - no missing parts of deflected tyres
Entry screen logo and frame are now drawn if a dialog box is open
FIX : In Driver Options the driver intersected with world objects
FIX : Reset from behind a barrier at South City could stop sound
FIX : Missing shadow on ground near fences at Autocross track
Multiplayer :
List of hosts can now show hosts you are not licensed to join
Host name is displayed in task bar and window title (if Latin)
Host options are now readable when opened from game setup screen
Default host IP address is now 127.0.0.1 (address of local host)
CTRL+SHIFT now displays time and date in all multiplayer replays
Removed TCP filter that allowed old versions in the list of hosts
FIX : Some problems resulting from multiple requests to join race
FIX : Pit stop did not end if car was knocked out of the pit lane
FIX : Some crashes that could result from an invalid unlock state
FIX : Some missing images (e.g. track select) caused LFS to crash
FIX : Suspension could incorrectly stay broken on remote computer
InSim :
NLP / MCI minimum time interval reduced to 40 ms (was 50 ms)
New collision packet gives details of contact between two cars
Longer IS_MST now up to 128 chars / specify sound / send to all
Misc :
Misc options : F9 / F10 accelerometer can be shown as one value
Improved detection of invalid window positions when starting LFS
URL command is now case insensitive - LFS:// or lfs:// both work
Security : InSim can no longer be initialised from a URL command
Cruise : no need to drive a lap before serving DT / SG penalty
Cruise : current lap is not displayed if lap timing is disabled
FIX : Improved collisions with unmovable objects (red barriers)
FIX : InSim camera with vertical pitch would cause LFS to crash
FIX : OutGaugePack ID was always zero regardless of ID in cfg.txt
Since the release of Z28 there have been various fixes and improvements that were not related to the new physics. Some of them were already added into my Z28 compatible version as well as the new version. But until now there weren't enough significant updates to release a new version, while Z28 was so stable.
NOTE : This patch is mainly compatible with Z28, so does NOT have the new tyre physics, the VW Scirocco or any S3 content. It is an intermediate update with some interesting improvements for LFS while I continue with the tyre physics. The new version can connect to Z28 hosts, but Z28 cannot connect to the new version's hosts.
The main things in this patch :
- New free view in SHIFT+U mode - not bounded by the path
- Improved collisions with unmovable objects (e.g. red barriers)
- Number of autocross objects increased to 800 (was 512)
- Open track configurations allowing you to drive anywhere
- Collision detection and reporting system (via InSim)
- Graphical optimisations improving frame rates
- Many other fixes and improvements
The story behind the new patch :
A few weeks ago I was working on some track editor improvements that Eric had requested, when I came across a fix that could possibly affect key presses in multi byte languages. An LFS user in Japan kindly tested the change, to make sure the fix didn't break the text input. I added a few updates from the new version into the patch before sending it to him.
Talking to Victor about possibly releasing the updates in a patch, he asked if it was possible to do a quick fix in SHIFT+U mode to help with his LFS Record program. I have long been a little frustrated in SHIFT+U mode so I got a bit carried away with that and rewrote all the camera control. It took a few weeks (that made me nervous as I really want to finish the new physics) but the result is a lot nicer to use. You can move the camera around freely, not bounded to the track path. The editor is fully aware of where your mouse is pointing and that helps with mouse movement and object positioning.
Because the new view is not locked to the path of the track, LFS does not know which objects are visible, so the whole track must be drawn. I managed to find several optimisations that improved the frame rate in this situation, and that gave me a thought : if you can be in SHIFT+U mode and draw everything, then how about allowing "open configurations" where you can drive around anywhere in a track area, with the barriers removed? I thought that would make the patch more interesting, and managed to get it done in a few days.
To make the open configurations useful, you need to put barriers up using the autocross system. But the unmovable barriers were famously troublesome, often throwing your car several metres in the air if you touched a red and white barrier. Looking into this, I found that I was able to improve these collisions a lot without any major changes. It doesn't seem to affect the hotlap replays (tested on all the world records).
Over last weekend I added a collision detection system, that can send information about collisions to InSim. And today I've increased the maximum length of message packets, which will be helpful for InSim programmers.
If all goes well, it should be possible to release this as a test patch within one to two weeks. There are a few things left on my list, including VOB mod protection and some small InSim updates. I am aiming for one week - I do want to get back to the physics - but I know that finishing things off sometimes takes longer than expected.
Here is the full list of updates :
SHIFT+U mode :
New free view mode replaces the old "low" and "high" path modes
Object or ground targeted by the mouse pointer is now detected
Left mouse button moves view point by "dragging" target point
Double click to move view point directly towards target point
Mouse wheel moves view point towards or away from target point
Left + Right mouse buttons rotate view point around the target
Arrow key movement follows ground below view point when possible
Store up to 10 views per track configuration with SHIFT+NUMBER
Recall a stored view with CTRL+NUMBER (or click on the button)
Click on a car to follow it / move away to stop following
Autocross editor :
Maximum number of autocross objects is now 800 on all tracks
Object positioning is much better - using mouse target detection
Less CPU / better checks when adding / moving / deleting objects
FIX : Could click on invisible replay slider when buttons visible
FIX : Could add marshall circles out of bounds then undeletable
FIX : N key in SHIFT+U with options on caused overlapping text
Open configurations :
New "drive anywhere" open configs (CTRL in track select screen)
Open configs can be selected with text command like /track=SO1X
Open configs can be used as racing circuits by adding checkpoints
Checkpoints can now be up to 62 metres wide to include pit lane
Optimisations :
Removed continual small memory leaks (materials list corruption)
Number plate generation is much faster - reducing pit-out glitch
Frame rate increased - drawing most world objects is much faster
Interface :
Unlock screen now renames unnamed player to user name on exit
Clicking selected track loads that track (like pressing ENTER)
Windows messages processed in a cleaner way (affects key presses)
Mouse movements are processed more efficiently (drag / slide)
FIX : Mouse look info could go off screen in some languages
FIX : An invalid view could be selected when no cars in race
FIX : Meeting room scroll bar was invisible in recent versions
FIX : Text commands could be used to load layout in hotlap mode
Graphics / Audio :
Improved display of help text / lesson text / welcome messages
F9 tyre diagram and SHIFT+L suspension diagrams now antialiased
Improved tyre optimisation - no missing parts of deflected tyres
Entry screen logo and frame are now drawn if a dialog box is open
FIX : In Driver Options the driver intersected with world objects
FIX : Reset from behind a barrier at South City could stop sound
FIX : Missing shadow on ground near fences at Autocross track
Multiplayer :
List of hosts can now show hosts you are not licensed to join
Host name is displayed in task bar and window title (if Latin)
Host options are now readable when opened from game setup screen
Default host IP address is now 127.0.0.1 (address of local host)
CTRL+SHIFT now displays time and date in all multiplayer replays
Removed TCP filter that allowed old versions in the list of hosts
FIX : Some problems resulting from multiple requests to join race
FIX : Pit stop did not end if car was knocked out of the pit lane
FIX : Some crashes that could result from an invalid unlock state
FIX : Some missing images (e.g. track select) caused LFS to crash
FIX : Suspension could incorrectly stay broken on remote computer
InSim :
NLP / MCI minimum time interval reduced to 40 ms (was 50 ms)
New collision packet gives details of contact between two cars
Longer IS_MST now up to 128 chars / specify sound / send to all
Misc :
Misc options : F9 / F10 accelerometer can be shown as one value
Improved detection of invalid window positions when starting LFS
URL command is now case insensitive - LFS:// or lfs:// both work
Security : InSim can no longer be initialised from a URL command
Cruise : no need to drive a lap before serving DT / SG penalty
Cruise : current lap is not displayed if lap timing is disabled
FIX : Improved collisions with unmovable objects (red barriers)
FIX : InSim camera with vertical pitch would cause LFS to crash
FIX : OutGaugePack ID was always zero regardless of ID in cfg.txt
OK, thanks for the comments.
I think that nearly all possible points have been made now (from the community's side).
I'm sure it would have been different if we had known in advance how long this development stage would take, I guess we could have tried to plan other releases in the meantime. But it has always seemed like I was near to finishing the tyre physics, so no change of plan was required.
Remember it was the Scirocco that showed up the issues in the tyre physics (there were already known tyre physics issues but we couldn't get the Scirocco to drive as safely as a real one does while restricting ourselves to a realistic setup). So, releasing the Scirocco has been out of the question until the tyre physics system is quite close to reality.
Releasing Rockingham has also been out of the question. We want to release a real track when the behaviour of the cars is right (not perfect, just close enough so the bumps feel right and the lap times are just like real ones).
Who knows, if I had known in advance that the tyre model would take so long, maybe Eric would have thought that he should focus on some S1 / S2 content updates. With the benefit of hindsight, it's easy to pick holes in what we have done and point out the mistakes we have made. But as I said, we always thought that in a few weeks or a couple of months, the new tyres would be ready to roll.
But the carcass simulation, which I had to look into because the tread simulation model clearly ignored too much of how a tyre actually behaves, took me in a whole new direction for a good part of last year. A long time of studying and finding out a lot more about tyres than I knew before, and had never thought I'd need to know. It made my head spin quite often, I'm not an eighteen year old on a university course. I couldn't even read this stuff for full eight hour days, had to take it a bit easy at times.
But still I usually thought I was near the end. So that is probably the reason for our dreadful "strategy" and lack of communication. It wasn't a strategy at all, and I didn't want to communicate until I got solid results.
I am fully aware that this post isn't going to convince many people. But I thought I'd write it anyway, to help you see slightly more from my point of view.
I will unsubscribe from this thread now, which I followed up to this point. But it's a bit too distracting to receive the email notifications and too tempting to come in here and read the latest posts, which takes me away from research and development.
I think that nearly all possible points have been made now (from the community's side).
I'm sure it would have been different if we had known in advance how long this development stage would take, I guess we could have tried to plan other releases in the meantime. But it has always seemed like I was near to finishing the tyre physics, so no change of plan was required.
Remember it was the Scirocco that showed up the issues in the tyre physics (there were already known tyre physics issues but we couldn't get the Scirocco to drive as safely as a real one does while restricting ourselves to a realistic setup). So, releasing the Scirocco has been out of the question until the tyre physics system is quite close to reality.
Releasing Rockingham has also been out of the question. We want to release a real track when the behaviour of the cars is right (not perfect, just close enough so the bumps feel right and the lap times are just like real ones).
Who knows, if I had known in advance that the tyre model would take so long, maybe Eric would have thought that he should focus on some S1 / S2 content updates. With the benefit of hindsight, it's easy to pick holes in what we have done and point out the mistakes we have made. But as I said, we always thought that in a few weeks or a couple of months, the new tyres would be ready to roll.
But the carcass simulation, which I had to look into because the tread simulation model clearly ignored too much of how a tyre actually behaves, took me in a whole new direction for a good part of last year. A long time of studying and finding out a lot more about tyres than I knew before, and had never thought I'd need to know. It made my head spin quite often, I'm not an eighteen year old on a university course. I couldn't even read this stuff for full eight hour days, had to take it a bit easy at times.
But still I usually thought I was near the end. So that is probably the reason for our dreadful "strategy" and lack of communication. It wasn't a strategy at all, and I didn't want to communicate until I got solid results.
I am fully aware that this post isn't going to convince many people. But I thought I'd write it anyway, to help you see slightly more from my point of view.
I will unsubscribe from this thread now, which I followed up to this point. But it's a bit too distracting to receive the email notifications and too tempting to come in here and read the latest posts, which takes me away from research and development.
Progress Report December 2010
News from www.lfs.net :
Dear LFS Racers,
We hope you have had a good year.
The stable Z28 has been the latest version for a long time now, while we have been working on things for the long term future of LFS. As many of you know, the tyre physics system is being updated so all the cars will behave that bit closer to reality. It has proved to be a challenging and unpredictable project, involving a lot of studying, mathematics, testing and rewriting.
Sometimes, we had a version that felt good to drive and it seemed that soon we would be able to release it to the community. But then we found situations where the simulation produced incorrect results, leading to further investigations into the way tyres perform in various circumstances and why they do so. One thing tends to lead to another and for a while it seems that the more you learn about tyres, the more you realise that there is so much more to find out!
Scawen has written a little more about tyre design and simulation in case you would like to get a bit more technical.
The VW Scirocco and Rockingham have seemed quite close to release for some time now, but we decided to wait for the updated tyres because these things from the real world will be best experienced with the most realistic physics system. Eric has been working on some more S3 content but he would like to get nearer to finishing before we show any new pictures.
Victor has recently produced a special program "LFS Record" which can help you to produce smooth movies from Live for Speed, using advanced camera control. It is still in a beta stage at the moment. The program has a lot of features - too much to describe here, so if you do make movies or would like to have a go, take a look at the LFS Record thread on our forum.
- LFS Developers
Dear LFS Racers,
We hope you have had a good year.
The stable Z28 has been the latest version for a long time now, while we have been working on things for the long term future of LFS. As many of you know, the tyre physics system is being updated so all the cars will behave that bit closer to reality. It has proved to be a challenging and unpredictable project, involving a lot of studying, mathematics, testing and rewriting.
Sometimes, we had a version that felt good to drive and it seemed that soon we would be able to release it to the community. But then we found situations where the simulation produced incorrect results, leading to further investigations into the way tyres perform in various circumstances and why they do so. One thing tends to lead to another and for a while it seems that the more you learn about tyres, the more you realise that there is so much more to find out!
Scawen has written a little more about tyre design and simulation in case you would like to get a bit more technical.
The VW Scirocco and Rockingham have seemed quite close to release for some time now, but we decided to wait for the updated tyres because these things from the real world will be best experienced with the most realistic physics system. Eric has been working on some more S3 content but he would like to get nearer to finishing before we show any new pictures.
Victor has recently produced a special program "LFS Record" which can help you to produce smooth movies from Live for Speed, using advanced camera control. It is still in a beta stage at the moment. The program has a lot of features - too much to describe here, so if you do make movies or would like to have a go, take a look at the LFS Record thread on our forum.
- LFS Developers
I don't know, you'd have to ask Eric.
As I said before, this thread is Tyre Physics Progress Report + Scirocco discussion.
If you are starting to think this is random question time for Scawen, please think again... maybe it's time to close the thread.
I said something because I had something to say, not because I was forced to. I am quite immune to the moaning that goes on, it doesn't disturb me much at all - it's just what happens on forums. And there are many people here with a perfect understanding of what we are doing, and they do explain it to others round here sometimes.
For a long time there was nothing to say, with some half developed tyre physics and unfinished AI drivers. When I had something to say, I said it. Hope you understand, as many others do!
It's up to Eric what of his work gets released, never have I tried to stop something of his being released!
I've just scanned through the last few pages of the thread. I haven't looked at the thread for a long time, as I've been working a lot recently.
I think you are not correct about the contempt. We're just improving this simulator. I'm trying to program the tyres to behave as realistic as possible. It takes a lot of investigation and testing.
The reason I don't make progress reports is not contempt. It just doesn't make any sense to me to do, say, monthly progress reports. One of them says "I'm working on the tyre physics" and then the next month "I'm still working on the tyre physics" and so on. I just want to say something when there is something interesting to say. But the tyre physics has been a lot of development, a lot of testing and trying new things, finding it did some things well and others not so well. Changing some things, looking for reference material to refine constants, taking a break, coming up with a new idea to test, trying it out, taking some wrong turns, investigating something that turned out impossible, rewriting something, finding a better result, and so on...
Maybe you would suggest that all those twists and turns along the journey of development is exactly what I should be writing in the weekly or monthly progress reports, but actually I don't want to. When I am following a line of investigation, I don't want to say what I am looking at, instead I just want to get on with it and see if it turns out right or wrong in the end. It's kind of a private activity, not sure how to explain that.
I don't want to give any quantifiable evidence of progress at the moment. I suppose that would be a video or some graphs of tyre forces? No, I just want to get on with it. For example today I woke up with an idea to try which might have a subtle effect on the force outputs from tyres in some situations. It's a pleasing one because it can be coded in a few minutes and will be easily visible on the generated force graphs, unlike some things that take days to write. I don't want to say what it is, it's just something I'm looking into. Sorry to everyone who would like insight into every step of the tyre physics development but it's something I do for my own interest and to come up with really nice handling cars that our community will enjoy, and that's nice because it should give us more sales eventually as well. I'm not interested in doing something like writing a book on tyre physics development, if you see what I mean.
But what I can say is...
I think the tyre physics have come along a lot recently. There were some significant changes over quite a long time this year and when I found the handling was quite interesting and certain old issues were sorted, I started to look into the tyre heating, trying to get a version ready again for the testers. That meant sorting out the AI drivers, who only knew the old physics system. If they could drive well in the new tyre physics, they could drive consistent laps and so inform me if the tyre heating was working well.
The AI ended up being about three weeks of work, and I found it personally quite an interesting development time - which is good because that's what I'm here for! Anyway their grip prediction systems are a lot better and they can now drive quite close to the limit, the best and most reliable AI drivers yet seen in LFS. At some point I'd really like to work on their overtaking code, though that is not a high priority for this physics update patch.
So the AI could be crossed off that published list of big things to be done, and I feel the tyres are getting close. I've been testing them out with Eric and Victor for the last two weeks. They have been coming up with interesting comments and leading me to further investigations and improvements. I'm trying to get the version ready for our private beta testers to have a go. Also looking at notes I have here, specific comments from our testers, the last time they did some testing. I try to deal with each point then cross it off the list. No point giving them back a version that still has issues they mentioned before.
From experience I have learned that it's not worth giving the beta testers a version that I still know is flawed. While there is still plenty for me to work on full time, and Eric and Victor are pleased with what they see but are still able to demonstrate situations where they think the handling is not quite like reality, the best thing to do is just carry on. For how long, I don't know. Not everything goes as expected. Some things I try make strangely little or surprisingly large differences and sometimes they open up a new area of investigation. Personally I am surprised overall how much there has been to learn and understand about the behaviour of tyres.
Today I thought I'd just have a look at this thread, but there are too many new pages for me to read in detail. Anyway, you may be assured we have not stopped development. I guess if we stopped development then we'd make a post about it. I'm not sure how that would happen, maybe if I got run over or contracted a fatal illness or perhaps someone will come and offer me a flight to the moon but I have to train at NASA for a couple of years. Unlikely, and there's really nothing better I can do than work on this simulator. I just don't want to write about every step on the development path, so that's why there is a long time between progress reports.
Last edited by Scawen, .
Hi there.
I'll "break the silence"... though I do think I said something quite recently.
There's really nothing to report, that's why we don't report anything. I've been continuing with the tyre physics. It's a mathematically based model as you know. That involves assumptions and simplifications to make it workable. During testing we found some extreme situations where the assumptions used caused a breakdown of the output forces. It turned out that the extreme situations can actually come up quite often. I don't really want to go into detail, I've been working on the model and studying the situations where things go wrong.
My work rate has not been very high these few months, I admit. For a while I seemed to fix something, it started to look good then on further investigation and analysis, another problem showed up. That kind of stumbling block caused me to take a break while I tried to get my head around it, to try another approach. The new approach might work or might not and I needed to think again. In those thinking times I didn't just sit here pushing myself until i came up with answers, instead I just sorted out other things unrelated to LFS. At this point in life in am not motivated to sort of sit there and pull my hair out and bang my head against a wall until the solution appears, I'd prefer to just do something else, running the problem over in my mind until I know what do do. That way I can make progress gradually without the frustration that can be experienced by someone who is stuck but needs to produce solutions in a given time.
It's not worth releasing a model with fatal flaws that make it worse than the current model in some situations, even though the on-track normal driving feel is better than the old tyre model.
Unfortunately the slow progress with the physics does delay the release of the Scirocco and Rockingham, but it can't really be helped. What I really want to do is get those improvements out there and then work on some more fun things I've been thinking about. You'll understand I can't comment on future things that may or may not happen, but there are things I want to do but can't until this hard stuff is out of the way.
About slow progress... some people comment how progress is so unbelievably and ridiculously slow... well I guess that means there must be a whole lot of sims out there that have overtaken LFS in nearly every way. If so, you can use them for a while, that's why we have an email notification when a patch is released. If people "leave" LFS that is fine. That kind of thing really can't be something I can get worried about. All I can do is work on the things I need to do, to get LFS to a level we are happy with, then release the updates. Sometimes that is delayed by obstacles as I described before, and sometimes by other things that come up in life generally. With two children and a house to look after, things that go wrong, guests that visit occasionally and that kind of thing, it's true that I don't do the same hours that I used to in the early days, when LFS was my hobby, my passion and my work all in one. Now it's more my work, I have other interests as well and there are now other things in life that are more important, but LFS is something I want to be proud of. Something that I want out there and being enjoyed.
Anyway, we have not died and we are not sipping cocktails on a tropical beach. Actually we are working on LFS. I'm developing the physics, Victor is keep things running, Eric is working on things too. We've done a load of work that we want to release, partly for the excitement of it, but we also have mortgages and other bills to pay and the releases will increase sales, so financially it would also be a great idea to get it out there!
Nothing else I can do do really, I'm just trying to get my current LFS projects finished and released. Threats of people "leaving" LFS, predictions of impending doom and so on don't really make any difference. I'm not about to release unfinished stuff and I will still get plently of sleep and relaxation time, and look after the other things I need to look after and develop LFS physics in whatever time it takes. Then we'll get there in the end and we'll send a notification email when the patch is ready, so you can all have a go on an improved LFS with more content.
I'll "break the silence"... though I do think I said something quite recently.
There's really nothing to report, that's why we don't report anything. I've been continuing with the tyre physics. It's a mathematically based model as you know. That involves assumptions and simplifications to make it workable. During testing we found some extreme situations where the assumptions used caused a breakdown of the output forces. It turned out that the extreme situations can actually come up quite often. I don't really want to go into detail, I've been working on the model and studying the situations where things go wrong.
My work rate has not been very high these few months, I admit. For a while I seemed to fix something, it started to look good then on further investigation and analysis, another problem showed up. That kind of stumbling block caused me to take a break while I tried to get my head around it, to try another approach. The new approach might work or might not and I needed to think again. In those thinking times I didn't just sit here pushing myself until i came up with answers, instead I just sorted out other things unrelated to LFS. At this point in life in am not motivated to sort of sit there and pull my hair out and bang my head against a wall until the solution appears, I'd prefer to just do something else, running the problem over in my mind until I know what do do. That way I can make progress gradually without the frustration that can be experienced by someone who is stuck but needs to produce solutions in a given time.
It's not worth releasing a model with fatal flaws that make it worse than the current model in some situations, even though the on-track normal driving feel is better than the old tyre model.
Unfortunately the slow progress with the physics does delay the release of the Scirocco and Rockingham, but it can't really be helped. What I really want to do is get those improvements out there and then work on some more fun things I've been thinking about. You'll understand I can't comment on future things that may or may not happen, but there are things I want to do but can't until this hard stuff is out of the way.
About slow progress... some people comment how progress is so unbelievably and ridiculously slow... well I guess that means there must be a whole lot of sims out there that have overtaken LFS in nearly every way. If so, you can use them for a while, that's why we have an email notification when a patch is released. If people "leave" LFS that is fine. That kind of thing really can't be something I can get worried about. All I can do is work on the things I need to do, to get LFS to a level we are happy with, then release the updates. Sometimes that is delayed by obstacles as I described before, and sometimes by other things that come up in life generally. With two children and a house to look after, things that go wrong, guests that visit occasionally and that kind of thing, it's true that I don't do the same hours that I used to in the early days, when LFS was my hobby, my passion and my work all in one. Now it's more my work, I have other interests as well and there are now other things in life that are more important, but LFS is something I want to be proud of. Something that I want out there and being enjoyed.
Anyway, we have not died and we are not sipping cocktails on a tropical beach. Actually we are working on LFS. I'm developing the physics, Victor is keep things running, Eric is working on things too. We've done a load of work that we want to release, partly for the excitement of it, but we also have mortgages and other bills to pay and the releases will increase sales, so financially it would also be a great idea to get it out there!
Nothing else I can do do really, I'm just trying to get my current LFS projects finished and released. Threats of people "leaving" LFS, predictions of impending doom and so on don't really make any difference. I'm not about to release unfinished stuff and I will still get plently of sleep and relaxation time, and look after the other things I need to look after and develop LFS physics in whatever time it takes. Then we'll get there in the end and we'll send a notification email when the patch is ready, so you can all have a go on an improved LFS with more content.
Thank you all for the testing.
Higher resolution textures are added one object at a time. Eric likes to work on one thing at once. So when he updates the FXO and FZ50 cars then you will get higher resolution textures for them. When a track is updated, you will get higher resolution textures with it.
It's just a gradual process.
If people could stop saying "Scawen is alive!" and "Eric is alive!" as if that is surprising in some way, it would be helpful.
We are just working on LFS as we always have, no change at all.
As usual we are working on some things you know about and some things you don't know about. There is too much discussion on this forum about what is happening with LFS, where are the devs etc...
The answer is just too simple, we are working on LFS, as we have done for many years and continue to do. There is no reason to think anything different, it is just pure fantasy created in the minds of a few noisy forum users, for no reason other than they can't think of anything else to do while they wait for an update in their favourite simulator.
Just to be clear - I was not making excuses or apologising, and I don't think I have a personal problem.
I could have kept it really short but I thought it would be a good idea to relay my ISP setup experience. Just some word of mouth "advertising" for BT and Virgin...
Thank you, yes. To add to what you say, I worked as an employee from approx age 19 (pizza delivery) to about 30 (at Lionhead). Then I took the risk of leaving a good job and setting up my own business (with Eric and then Victor) and lived very frugally for a couple of years until we could sell S1 licenses!
The reward now is that we can take our time to get things sorted out in our life, and work as we wish, when the inspiration takes us. The result... LFS, whether you think that is good or bad. Employed people do most probably have to go to work even when their house is still full of boxes, or at other times when they should really have a few days at home. There are some advantages in being self employed!
By the way, I did not feel pressured directly to make a post. Victor said to me that he had been receiving a lot of technical support emails and there was unrest in some threads in the forum. I have not seen any of them, just wanted to make life easier for Victor, and saw no harm in letting people know I had moved. I decided the ISP story might be of some interest to British residents...
And are we obligated legally and morally to add free cars and additional content, as we do?
I know you have worded your post not to be attacking us, but it is quite hilarious how many people (although I am aware it is a small minority and ther are plenty of patient people out there who respect our methods, even if things take a long time) have appeared and are attacking us (only with words of course) on the actual thread announcing many new developments, and a few days after a clear statement from me about what we consider most important for development in the near future.
Nothing more could we do than that, other than work twice as hard but as I've pointed out before, sleep is required in order to remain alive. No way am I morally obligated to work more than the 270 hours I did last month, and no way am I morally or legally obligated to hire additional staff when the only thing we have promised, is development to S2 stage, with clearly stated goals, that we are gradually getting nearer to achieving. Working the way we want to do, which we are happy doing, and is the reason for LFS's existence.
The standard keeps getting higher, many new unplanned features are added, and that is why things take longer than planned. You've got most of what I have done but there are some things on Eric's hard drive awaiting completion, and you'll get them when they are done. It's easier to release a half-baked code feature that works, but you can't release a track with some hills you can see under and cars with holes in them.
Anyone who thinks we should do better in a shorter time should present to us all their work that proves their point. Anyone who says we should change our way of working and turn LFS into a company with employees, I have a very short phrase for them but can't say it on a public forum.
I've had a look into it and the reason I gave previously was wrong. The actual reason why the lights are dimmer is because of the overlay texture Eric used to cover the gauges. The texture with holes in it where the lights are, those holes are not perfectly clear, they have some deliberate lack of transparency.
Anyway I've made the lights a tiny bit brighter by giving them a tiny bit of saturation (in RGB terms, on the red light, the R part stayed at maximum, but I've added a tiny bit of G and B to it).
That's all I can do for now.
Well, I guess I should have said redder rather than brighter. It now has red to maximum and the green a bit reduced so it is less orange, and now the same colour as the red LED lights of the gear indicator.
I think this is a bit easier to see in your peripheral vision, there was something a bit washed out about the orange, though I'm not certain it achieved all that Dru wanted. It is still not popping out at you, to say the least.
Although the red channel of the shift lights are now at maximum, the whole texture is toned down by the colour Eric chose for the dash texture, so it is duller than on some other cars.
One thing I can tell you when I drove the real FBM, as I went down the straight at Bruntingthorpe, I could hardly see the red LED gear indicator at all. That was quite inconvenient as I wanted to know what gear I was in. Being a learner I did not always know. On the other hand I could clearly see the LCD display although it was small even in reality. Well that's not so relevant when we are talking about a car with a roof, but anyway red LEDs aren't THAT bright in the day time. I toned down the BF1 dash a little today as it seemed to be burning red holes in my retinas. It's still bright but won't damage your eyes like looking at someone using a mig welder.
An editor tool for Eric. I recently added a dashboard editor for the LCD clocks. He needs an editor for road car clocks and that will give more flexibility and better dashboards in future.
It's still awaiting my UF improvements. I did nothing to the UFR apart from adding the race car dash and also made the mirrors less angular.
I've answered over there. It's not at all easy to fix, actually it's impossible to fix and keep compatibility.
FGED GREDG RDFGDR GSFDG